ANKARA - Journalist Steve Sweeney, one of the first journalists to expose Turkey's use of chemical weapons in Federated Kurdistan, said, “Turkey was losing in the land war. They had entered a war they could not win. The use of chemical weapons seemed to have started at this point" and said: "We need to build a mass movement."
As the military operations launched by Turkey against the Federated Kurdistan Region have left 6 months behind, the evidences of chemical weapons use in the region has increased. Many organizations, institutions, intellectuals, writers, academics and politicians called on relevant international institutions to conduct investigations in the areas where chemical weapons were used. 51 organizations and parties in Europe sent letters to the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW).
Steve Sweeney, the international editor of the Morning Star Newspaper published in Britain, who worked on the ground, is one of the first journalists to expose the use of chemical weapons. Sharing his observations with the Mesopotamia Agency (MA), Sweeney pointed out that countries such as England, America, France, Italy and Germany supported this war. Noting that after the chemical weapons issue was exposed, Britain made large donations to the OPCW, which was supposed to investigate this issue, Sweeney answered our questions about the allegations on the chemical weapons used by Turkey on Kurds.
You were one of the very few journalists who brought the issue on the European agenda. Can you tell me how you heard the allegations and how you investigated?
Well, I've been in Iraqi Kurdistan, Bashur on and off since September last year. And when I was there, we noticed that there was the drums were beating for war very loudly. And there was huge opposition against the Kurdistan Democratic Party, Mr. Massoud Barzani's party in in the region. And they were kind of joining these calls to flush the PKK out of the Qandil mountains. Now, this was something that was opposed by every political party, every civil society organization, every peace group in the region, who were holding protests, saying that we don't want an inter Kurdish war. And of course, they remember the devastating impacts of the loss such war in which somewhere between 30 and 80,000 were killed in this conflict between the PKK and the KDP and PUK. So, we knew that this was coming for some time, and of course, we know that the KDP acts as Turkey's proxy within within the region. And then there was the the humiliation of the Turkish army in their previous military operation where they were they managed to kill 13 of their their own soldiers in a friendly fire incident. And that kind of that embarrassed the government and I think they were embarrassed on the domestic front in the parliament. MPs were raising questions about this. So it wasn't really much of a surprise when the invasion started in on April the 23rd. And this of course, has a significance in that. It was the date of the Armenian Genocide in which one and a half million men, women and children were systematically exterminated by the Ottoman Empire, by Turkey, Turkish troops in one of the most well documented genocides in history, it was the blueprint for the Nazi Holocaust. And of course, Turkey denies that such a genocide took took place. So anyway, we knew it was coming. And then we saw the ground invasion and airstrikes started on that day. But what they didn't anticipatewas the resistance of the Kurdish resistance fighters.
You were there when the operation started. What did you witness there?
Operation Claw Lightning was made to look like an operation against the PKK both in the Turkish press and the international press. But this was not the case. This was an attack on the whole of the Kurdish people as part of its genocide or genocidal attacks. So I first became aware of the chemical attacks when I had some footage leaked to me of an alleged chemical attack in in a guerilla tunnel. And the evidence for this. For me as a journalist, I have to work on what I can see and my investigations and what you know, it appeared that chemicals were used in the guerilla tunnel, and that the guerilla fighters had died as a result of the chemical attack. Now, this was something that had been circulating amongst Turkish army, WhatsApp groups. And of course, it wasn't made public. We were not entirely sure what chemical was used. But there was a canister marked ammonium nitrate that was seen, again in this footage. So this was when I really first became aware of the use of chemical weapons. As I was in the region, I managed to make it fairly close to the area that was being that was under attack. And of course, you have to remember that this is a warzone. And I spoke to a number of people. But these are people that were the residents of the areas that were being attacked. Now they told me a number of things. I spoke to people that had suffered from what appeared to be the effects of gas attacks, and they describe the symptoms that would be consistent with the use of white phosphorus, for example, so they had burning skin. They had difficulty breathing, their eyes were streaming. And the symptoms all showed after a Turkish either a missile strike or artillery shelling. And they described what they saw as a white smoke. And these were attacks not on guerrilla fighters, not on members of the PKK are PKK supporters. These were attacks on agricultural workers. So these were people that have been largely driven out of their homes. And I started to meet some of these people. I think the Christian Peacemaker Team (CPT), which is working on the ground estimates, something like 1.500 Kurdish villages that have been driven from their home, that figure is probably a conservative estimate, I would guess, and that the real figure is probably much higher, much higher than that.
Were you able to speak to the people driven from their villages? What did they say?
Yes, I started to find these people and speak to them. What one of the people I spoke to said was that, I'd heard rumors that Turkey had brought in jihadist fighters from Libya and from Syria, the same people that they used in Nagorno Karabakh against Azerbaijan. But of course, I wanted to know, some details about this and how they knew. And what the Kurdish villagers told me was that they heard the soldiers speaking in Arabic to each other. Now, this was kind of clear enough evidence that these were not Turkish soldiers, but they were wearing the uniform of the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK). Now, there's an estimated again, 2000 of these fighters that have been shipped in to the area to conduct the ground fighting, because the Turkish army was failing. The use of chemical weapons seemed to have started at this point. And this is why they've had to resort to the use of chemical weapons and unconventional warfare, which is illegal. It's against all international treaties. It's a war crime. And it should be treated treated as such. But the reason that they've done so is because they're not making an inch of ground six months into a war that they can't win. And, you know, this is why we're seeing the escalation in the use of chemical weapons, which has been reported, not just by the PKK, we have to understand that this is reported from the residents on the ground, and independent organizations like the Christian Peacemakers Team. So and you know, from my my observations, I would say it's very clear that chemical weapons were in fact being being used in, in in Iraqi Kurdistan as part of this military operation. We also have to remember that, aside from the use of the chemical weapons, Turkey was committing other war crimes, such as attacking the Maxmur Refugee Camp. Now for those that don't know, I'm sure the viewers of Mesopotamia agency will be very well aware of what Maxmur camp is. But this is a UN administered refugee camp of about 12,000 people, I spent approximately two weeks in the camp living in and among the residents there.
What kind of damage was caused as a result of the attack in the Mahmur Refugee Camp?
As a result of the attack on the camp, no one was injured or killed as a result of a great coincidence. But I saw how it functioned, saw the democratic system that they operate there, which runs along the lines of democratic confederalism, with the ideas of Abdullah Öcalan, and here they are applied in practice now. This is also what makes the camp a threat to Erdoğan. I think it was back in July, Erdoğan, very chillingly, ordered the United Nations to clear up the camp. And he said if you do not do it, I will do it as a United Nations member state. So he was very clearly in that incident. This is really, really important that he was very clearly not acting independently, not acting as President Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey. He said that he would do it as a United Nations member state.
No condemnation came from the UN or relevent bodies at that point..
Now you think that that would trigger some kind of response, some kind of condemnation of his actions. But there has been a blanket silence. The United Nations hasn't condemned him. There was I think, a minor UN ambassador who said she was 'a little bit concerned' over it or something pathetic, you know, that they come out with, but there has been no international condemnation. This is a NATO member state armed to the teeth by Western imperialist powers, which is carrying out an attack on refugees on a refugee camp. Yeah, I was there. These are men, women, children carrying out their day to day living in very difficult conditions. They're also under a blockade from the Kurdistan Regional Government spearheaded by the KDP. And my efforts to get a response on this particular incident have been met with a wall of silence. The world powers, the NATO, the United Nations and the international community, the United States, Britain and France, were colluding with Turkey. And I have to say, this is another important point, it's a big mistake to think that Turkey is operating independently in this. Now you see the interventions in Syria, the interventions in Iraq, and Bashur are not an accident. Now, these are areas where the region where the imperialist powers, they have their own regional interest there, they want regime change in Syria, they want regime change, or to impose their power inside Iraq. President Erdogan wants the genocide of the Kurdish people. And it just so happened that those two interests happened to overlap. So it would be a mistake to say that these world powers don't know what's happening. Of course, they know what's happening. So this is an imperialist war on the Kurdish people.
As a journalist covering the subject on the ground, have you encountered any evidence of the allegations? Have you spoken to people who have been exposed to these chemical attacks? Do you have material evidence such as photographs, videos, hospital reports?
Yes, I've spoken to a number of people that have been subjected to the chemical attacks that are presented with symptoms of burns, sore throat, telling that they were struggling to breathe, streaming eyes, which is consistent with a chemical attack. And like I said, all of these symptoms occurred soon after Turkish bombing and Turkish artillery attack. I'm a journalist. I'm not I'm not a chemical expert. So I can go on anecdotal reports. I've spoken to guerrilla fighters who have described in quite graphic detail of the effects of the chemical attacks in the tunnels where they found their comrades have been found dead with bubbling and stuff coming out of their mouths. They also told that they felt like they were choking the minute they entered the tunnels. And they've described quite clearly the smell and the taste of the gas that has been used. I have some footage sent to me and I've consulted with experts when I came back to London. And they have suggested that it could be white phosphorus. Now, Turkey which is a signatory to the Chemical Weapons Convention, which was signed in in 1997, consistently denies that it has chemical stockpiles. These allegations must be monitored by the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, the OPCW. But of course, white phosphorus isn't a banned chemical. This is used as allowed in for military purposes. They use it to illuminate in the nighttime or they use it for cover for soldiers on the battlefield.
So is white phosphorus something you can easily find and use?
No. it is not. It is illegal to use it on a civilian population, which Turkey has a history of doing You remember 2019, almost two years to the day, in fact that chemical weapons were used in an attack on in Serekaniye, and on the civilian population in which you'll recall the young boy who was covered in chemical burns and was treated eventually in France. Now. This is worth recording because at the time the OPCW was called upon to investigate and they said that they were going to look into this. And chemical weapons experts here said yes, this is definitely almost certainly the use of white phosphorus. Now, what happened was after consideration, the OPCW suddenly changed their mind and they said we're not going to investigate this because white phosphorus was used and it was not a banned chemical or whatever excuse that they made. Now this coincided with a donation that was made, a 30,000 Euros by Turkey, to the OPCW. Turkey made the donation and then just days later the OPCW dropped the investigation. Now, both Turkey and the OPCW denied any link between the two, which of course they would, you know, they said it was a mere coincidence. But, you know, it doesn't take a genius to work out that the two are linked. And yeah, I think very strongly that they are. Which leads us into the situation we have now, where the OPCW is ignoring the calls that have come from a wide range of organizations, from individuals from parliamentarians for investigations into the alleged alleged chemical attacks again. You call it again a coincidence. But at a time when these calls are on the rise, the imperialist powers are increasing their donations to the OPCW. Last week, Britain donated 750,000 pounds to the OPCW. Now this is not a small amount for a voluntary donation.
What does this donation mean?
I can easily say that this is a political donation. 100,000 pounds of that donation is designated for the OPCW to focus its attention on Syria, and the use of chemical weapons by the Syrian Government on its own people. Now, I've written quite extensively about this, and the evidence that the Syrian government whether you like them or not, is immaterial. But the evidence that it has used chemical weapons against his own people is very, very thin indeed. So you know, it can easly be said that OPCW is a tool of imperialism.
As a result of their research, the CPT team stated that the symptoms of people treated in hospital showed the symptoms of a person exposed to white phosphorus. There were allegations that England sold white phosphorus to Turkey. Does the UK sell white phosphorus to Turkey?
Yes. This is not a claim. It is the truth. I'm currently working on a on a major article on this at the moment, which we'll look at exposing all of this kind of these details. Britain has issued more, at the very least 70 export licenses, for white phosphorus. And for weapons and arms that can be armed with white phosphorus. We know this. Because there is at least a semi degree of transparency in Britain's export license system. And they have to be transparent about this kind of thing. So we know that has happened. And we know that they've sold them to Turkey. This was back in 2019. So there's probably more than 70 licences now. So I'm currently investigating this. Britain is complicit in attacks on the Kurds. And this is also probably a good reason why there are no investigations taking place because the investigations will lead a trail back to Britain back to the US and back to the world powers because they are the ones that are arming and supplying Turkey with the chemicals that they're using to attack the Kurds. This is absolutely crucial for understanding what's happening in Iraqi Kurdistan. Because again, like I said earlier, this is not just Turkey's war, this is NATO's war. This is the UN's war. This is Britain's war. This is America's war. This is France's war. And all of these people are colluding in the genocide of the Kurdish people. And that's what lies behind these chemical attacks. Now, we shouldn't think that Britain, and the US or Europe are averse to the use of chemical weapons. We know that the United States has used white phosphorus in Syria, you know, fairly, very, very recently. But also it has a history of the use of white phosphorus, in Fallujah. And we know, we know very well from the Iraq War, how they used chemical weapons, and it has a long history and tradition. I mean, my predecessor, Alan Winnington, as the foreign editor of the of the morning style was one of the people that exposed the use of biological weapons in the Korean War that were used by the United States and so was Australian journalist Wilfred Burchett. They were both exiled for exposing USA's use of biological weapons and could not go back to their countries. They were both declared traitors by their countries. But in the end, they have proven to be right. The same thing will happen here. We know that Turkey used chemical weapons on the Kurds. There is enough evidence to investigate this allegation. And we are not the only ones who knows this. The imperialist powers also knows that. What's important is what we can do to stop this.
What do you think needs to be done?
We need the power of the society. And we've seen time and time again, that the only way that world powers will listen or take action or stop doing or stop conducting wars or atrocities is when they're faced with a situation that leaves them no choice. And that usually means that we need to have a mass movement. We can't stop the war crimes of the governments with weak objections in parliaments, with motions or condemnations. And, you know, for example, today I was in the British Parliament listening to a debate on Kurdish political representation in Turkey. And you know, there there was a brilliant case that had been put together by the MPs that covered a whole range of issues from the jailing of HDP MPs. From the withdrawal from the Istanbul Convention and femicide in Turkey, the attacks on women, they also mentioned Mesopotamia Agency's report on the Van helicopter incident, but also the brutal crushing of journalism, oppression of journalism with more journalists in jail, the kind of things that we already know, you know, and they spoke importantly, they raised the issue of the PKK and the Belgium court case and said that it should be delisted as a terrorist organization. Now, there was overwhelming evidence, the report that was presented was was excellent. But it just shows the government's response was. They said, "Yes, we're concerned over some of these things. But the PKK is a terrorist organization. We're not going to delist them. And really, we're not going to take any action against Turkey.' So I mean, what that showed to me really was that we can't win this just by the force of argument. We have the evidence to the arguments on our side, the history is on our side. We have all of the evidence in our favor. And you know there's no legal solution to what is essentially a political problem. Because, everyone shrugs their shoulders and says, so what? What are you going to do about it? And of course, they're not going to do anything about it, which is why we need this mass movement in solidarity with not just with the Kurdish people, but with, the global fight against against imperialism. And that's the thing that we're seriously lacking at the moment. But we are doing the job of raising awareness as journalists.So we also need an independent media that is prepared to give coverage of these things, because look at the British press except the Morning Star. There's not a peep. Nobody is talking about Turkey's chemical weapons attacks, nobody's talking about the other things, either about the jailing of HDP officials and the attempt to close down the party and this kind of thing. But nobody is talking about Turkey's war. This is a six month war, an illegal war, an illegal occupation, during which war crimes has been committed. Hospitals were bombed, killing 8 people, 4 of whom were health workers.
Twice, bombing a UN administered refugee camp, the execution of a Yazidi commander, who was on his way to meet the Iraqi Prime Minister, the first time an Iraqi Prime Minister had gone to the region. What would happen if all of these things happened anywhere else in the world, can you imagine? Can you imagine the response? There would be sanctions imposed. Bombs would be dropping like rain. You know they love to bomb places. They might have even invaded, but they will certainly be sanctioned imposed, and there'll be an attempt to oust the president. But instead, what do they do? They roll out the red carpet for Erdoğan. They treat him like he's a normal leader of a normal country, when he's an he's an oppressive dictator. Tayyip Erdoğan is a terrorist. And, you know, there's no getting away from that, and he should be dragged in front of the Hague and tried as a war criminal. This situation is completely unsustainable. Stop treating Turkey as a normal nation, stop sending arms to Turkey, for goodness sake, stop setting the weapons that are used to, to crush not only the Kurdish people, but also to oppress the people of Turkey internally as well. What's happening now are the consequences of the political and military support given to Tayyip Erdoğan, we need to stop all of those things, we need to stop making trade deals. These are deals of blood, deals of shame. You know, Turkey was the first country that Britain did a post Brexit trade trade deal with. So, you know, this is what we need, really, we need to build a mass movement. We need to build a mass movement that brings down our government and replaces it with one that has a foreign policy that's based on solidarity and cooperation, not not one that's based on war and oppression.
Following your report on the chemical attacks, Peoples' Democratic Party brought the subject before the parliament. And so did a few European countries with the efforts of Peace in Kurdistan Campaign. Do you think your report got enough response to draw attention to the issue?
I think that all of this work is important. And I don't want to dismiss the efforts of those that are raising these issues in their Parliaments. I know, it's been raised in the German parliament. I know, it's been raised in the Italian and British Parliaments. This is obviously very, very important work. And it's important, again, in raising the level of propaganda amongst society as well about what about what's happening, but of course, these governments simply brush off and ignore the concern, the German government has far too much invested in trade with Turkey. Particularly in arms, I think Germany is the biggest arms seller to Turkey. Britain is also one of the leading arms traders with Turkey. Italy, again, I think, has good relations with Turkey. And of course, they very much see Turkey as part of their club. You know, they're part of their gang. They're part of the the NATO member states, they're part of the United Nations. The issue have been raised again, in the Council of Europe and the European Parliament, which simply dismissed the claims, as you know, saying that there was a lack of evidence. Because they said the only evidence you have is reports in the Kurdish media. And of course, the reason is because the rest of the media are ignoring these attacks or even covering up the crime committed by Turkey. And the lack of international people on the ground covering these news is making it harder.
Speaking of the lack of research on the ground, you mentioned that a new initiative called 'Coalition Against the Use of Chemical Weapons in Kurdistan' is about to be established in the UK recently. What will this coalition do, can you tell me a bit about it?
Yes we have established a coalition consisting of a few initiatives. The establishment of the coalition was declared yesterday, which is aiming to bring together bodies across the world, and on organizations and individuals across the world who oppose the use of chemical weapons, but also we're going to send a delegation to the region because, you know, none of us are chemical experts, right? I have no idea how to examine an area for chemical attacks. I've seen them I've been there, I've seen the site of bombing attacks. But what we need is the OPCW to send a team to take the samples away. The difficulty we have is that, of course, in the Kurdistan Region, they don't have the means to do that. They don't have the technology that can take samples and assess them. So this has to be done by the OPCW, they're the experts. And we do know actually that, particularly with white phosphorus, the samples can tell you exactly where they came from and which batches were used. So if they get a sample of the white phosphorus, it would link it to Turkey. This is not something that is impossible to figure out. They can figure out if they want to. But they don't. They can stop Turkey's war. But they don't want to. They say Turkey has a legitimate right to defend itself from terror attacks. Okay, by going into other people's countries and bombing them? Show me one report of an attack against Turkey. There is none. By using chemical weapons on rural agricultural populations? How did these farmers and villagers carried out a terrorist attack against Turkey? By striking terror into Kurdish communities, by jailing journalists by, you know, by jailing political representatives, by banning of a legal political party? These are not the behavior of a normal state. Turkey is not a normal state. We have to keep reminding people of this. So as the delegation we aim to observe the area attack with chemical weapons and put pressure on the relevant bodies to start an investigation. So we need to go back there. And we need to take people to go and see not just the attack, but we're going to go and meet with the Kurdistan Democratic Party, we're going to meet with the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, we're going to meet with the British ambassador and the British Consulate and ask them why they're not speaking out. They never say anything. I keep asking them and they ignore me. For six months, you know, this war has been going on and they've not said anything. Yet, when the PKK are accused of killing Peshmerga forces, then they issue horrid statements of condemnation. So, you know, there's a clear line here, which is one that supports Turkey's operations. And we have to look at the internal dynamics of that, too. This is why we have established this coalition.
What kind of consequences will occur if the use of chemical weapons is officially proven, what kind of sanctions can Turkey face or do you think sanctions can be applied?
Well, in an ideal world, of course, there should be sanctions against Turkey. If we are talking aboutinternational justice. But if we only judge by the history of what's happened, and Turkey has operated with impunity for decades now. You know, think of the the numbers of Kurds that have been massacred in the Kurdish genocide that has taken place, under various governments, and nobody has been held accountable for these actions. We've seen war crimes committed in Northern Syria, in the region known as Rojava. We saw the extra judicial execution of Havrin Khalef. We've seen chemical weapons being used. We've seen weapons being shipped to jihadist organizations. We've seen support for the Syrian National Army, which is a myriad of Islamist and jihadist organizations. We've seen the kidnapping and trafficking of Kurdish and Yazidi women by these groups, through Turkey. Some of these women, thousands of these women trafficked through Turkey, yet no action has been taken. We saw the execution of the three women in Kobani with drone strikes, no action was taken about that either. We only need to look at what's happening inside Turkey and against the Kurdish people inside Turkey. And the jailing of democratically elected politicians. There's been no action taken about that, even when the courts do make a decision like they did with Selahattin Demirtaş and Osman Kavala, that they should be released from prison, and Turkey refuses to abide by them. No action is taken. So all of this emboldens Erdoğan. He knows that he can get away with murder, which is what he's doing. So if the OPCW goes to the region and finds that Turkey has been using chemicals, Erdoğan should be tried as a war criminal. He's committed war crimes, but he should have been tried as a war criminal for the execution of Havrin Khalef and for the all the things that I've listed previously, he should be tried as a war criminal for the deliberate targeting of the hospital in Shangal, he should be tried as a war criminal for the attacks on Maxmur Camp. The fact that he's allowed to act, continue to act with impunity should be a shame to the world.
If you were to end with a message, what would you like to say?
Eventually, the Kurds and the peoples of Turkey will get justice. Erdogan will go down in history as a war criminal and the Kurds will continue to resist. I am happy if I could be a part of this resistance as much as I could. As a journalist banned from entering Turkey, I have a message for Erdogan; See you in the Hague.
MA/ Gözde Çağrı Özköse